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	<title>Comments on: Brain Surgery and Levels of Spirituality</title>
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	<description>At the edge of faith, there be monsters</description>
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		<title>By: Jonah</title>
		<link>http://mormonmonsters.com/2010/02/brain-surgery-and-levels-of-spirituality/comment-page-1/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmonsters.com/?p=8#comment-19</guid>
		<description>Of course you feel free, that this experience of freedom is the reality you live in.  I argue that you feel this way because you are interpreting correctly the nature of the wider universe, which is indeterminate. Perhaps you agree with me that this is an accurate description of reality external to you, perhaps you don&#039;t. 
 
If you do hold that this is the nature of the wider universe (and hence perhaps why you feel free), however, I still need an argument from you about why you&#039;d privilege your experience of being free as something you&#039;d assert as truly being part of the wider reality while not granting the same to the human experience of deep interconnectedness (which I have argued many times as the sine qua non of &quot;spiritual experiences&quot;). 
 
If you don&#039;t hold that what you interpret as at least some degree of &quot;being free to act&quot; is characteristic of wider reality, then it seems to me that you are either a solipcist (there is no wider reality beyond me) or you are living an experience different than your philosophy--which, if I understand you, is one that entertains the possibility that the kind of experiences of interconnection that many label as &quot;spiritual&quot; is all a matter of brain chemistry. So, unless you give me a reason that brain chemistry does not determine all actions/feelings/emotions, it seems reasonable for me to claim that your everyday experience of the world would be counter to your philosophy--i.e., you&#039;d not be &quot;living&quot; your philosophy.
 
I think you are trying to have the best of both worlds, and I don&#039;t think it&#039;s a solid position. I think you need to make a choice--either freedom or determinism.  If you choose freedom, which I think you will (or already do), then I think to be consistent you would also have to choose the possibility that all other things you/people experience are likewise built into the nature of the wider universe beyond ourselves. This choice then would make it impossible to easily dismiss someone&#039;s experience of true, deep connection to something beyond his or herself as false--i.e., that interconnection is not something that is characteristic of Reality itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course you feel free, that this experience of freedom is the reality you live in.  I argue that you feel this way because you are interpreting correctly the nature of the wider universe, which is indeterminate. Perhaps you agree with me that this is an accurate description of reality external to you, perhaps you don&#8217;t. </p>
<p>If you do hold that this is the nature of the wider universe (and hence perhaps why you feel free), however, I still need an argument from you about why you&#8217;d privilege your experience of being free as something you&#8217;d assert as truly being part of the wider reality while not granting the same to the human experience of deep interconnectedness (which I have argued many times as the sine qua non of &#8220;spiritual experiences&#8221;). </p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t hold that what you interpret as at least some degree of &#8220;being free to act&#8221; is characteristic of wider reality, then it seems to me that you are either a solipcist (there is no wider reality beyond me) or you are living an experience different than your philosophy&#8211;which, if I understand you, is one that entertains the possibility that the kind of experiences of interconnection that many label as &#8220;spiritual&#8221; is all a matter of brain chemistry. So, unless you give me a reason that brain chemistry does not determine all actions/feelings/emotions, it seems reasonable for me to claim that your everyday experience of the world would be counter to your philosophy&#8211;i.e., you&#8217;d not be &#8220;living&#8221; your philosophy.</p>
<p>I think you are trying to have the best of both worlds, and I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a solid position. I think you need to make a choice&#8211;either freedom or determinism.  If you choose freedom, which I think you will (or already do), then I think to be consistent you would also have to choose the possibility that all other things you/people experience are likewise built into the nature of the wider universe beyond ourselves. This choice then would make it impossible to easily dismiss someone&#8217;s experience of true, deep connection to something beyond his or herself as false&#8211;i.e., that interconnection is not something that is characteristic of Reality itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Obadiah</title>
		<link>http://mormonmonsters.com/2010/02/brain-surgery-and-levels-of-spirituality/comment-page-1/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>Obadiah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmonsters.com/?p=8#comment-18</guid>
		<description>With Mormonism&#039;s insistence that the soul is the united body and spirit, I see less contradiction between the physical realms and the spiritual realms. Mormonism is inherently materialistic, so I think we have more room to navigate when studies reveal these kind of results. But I like what Habakkuk says about serendipity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With Mormonism&#8217;s insistence that the soul is the united body and spirit, I see less contradiction between the physical realms and the spiritual realms. Mormonism is inherently materialistic, so I think we have more room to navigate when studies reveal these kind of results. But I like what Habakkuk says about serendipity.</p>
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		<title>By: Habakkuk</title>
		<link>http://mormonmonsters.com/2010/02/brain-surgery-and-levels-of-spirituality/comment-page-1/#comment-17</link>
		<dc:creator>Habakkuk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 07:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Seems to me that if there is a natural explanation for an experience or phenomena. Why not accept it. Take serendipity for example. The other day I was thinking of someone and then they called. Well, how many people do I know? How many people call me at work. Stretch that out over ten years and the odds get smaller and smaller. What&#039;s more impressive is that I actually had a friend, and he in deed decided to call me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems to me that if there is a natural explanation for an experience or phenomena. Why not accept it. Take serendipity for example. The other day I was thinking of someone and then they called. Well, how many people do I know? How many people call me at work. Stretch that out over ten years and the odds get smaller and smaller. What&#8217;s more impressive is that I actually had a friend, and he in deed decided to call me.</p>
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		<title>By: Nahum</title>
		<link>http://mormonmonsters.com/2010/02/brain-surgery-and-levels-of-spirituality/comment-page-1/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>Nahum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 06:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmonsters.com/?p=8#comment-15</guid>
		<description>This is an incomprehensible argument for me.  If I understand you, you are saying that if reality is X and not Y, then we can’t “live it.”  How does one live reality?  I live IN reality, and my existence is part of that reality.  I assume that means I can and do to some degree influence reality.  So, I am not fully determined, something I think you and I agree on; thus, I am “living it.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an incomprehensible argument for me.  If I understand you, you are saying that if reality is X and not Y, then we can’t “live it.”  How does one live reality?  I live IN reality, and my existence is part of that reality.  I assume that means I can and do to some degree influence reality.  So, I am not fully determined, something I think you and I agree on; thus, I am “living it.”</p>
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		<title>By: Jonah</title>
		<link>http://mormonmonsters.com/2010/02/brain-surgery-and-levels-of-spirituality/comment-page-1/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I guess that it can be just that. If so, I&#039;d love an argument though why we shouldn&#039;t consider all our other interpreted feelings as simply being that, as well. Are you willing to live according to a commitment that our sense of being free is also possibly/likely simply a product of our brains? The idea of justice as purely a social convention that we&#039;ve reified, projecting it as existing beyond the human realm? All values, all morality as having NO external reality influencing our experience of them? 

I&#039;m sure you can imagine your own world of experience as purely coming from your brain and millennia of social milieu, and perhaps you can even think it&#039;s bold and beautiful in its own way. I bet , however, just like David Hume when it came to where his philosophical examinations took him, you can&#039;t LIVE it.  And if that&#039;s so, then what&#039;s the point of such philosophizing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess that it can be just that. If so, I&#8217;d love an argument though why we shouldn&#8217;t consider all our other interpreted feelings as simply being that, as well. Are you willing to live according to a commitment that our sense of being free is also possibly/likely simply a product of our brains? The idea of justice as purely a social convention that we&#8217;ve reified, projecting it as existing beyond the human realm? All values, all morality as having NO external reality influencing our experience of them? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure you can imagine your own world of experience as purely coming from your brain and millennia of social milieu, and perhaps you can even think it&#8217;s bold and beautiful in its own way. I bet , however, just like David Hume when it came to where his philosophical examinations took him, you can&#8217;t LIVE it.  And if that&#8217;s so, then what&#8217;s the point of such philosophizing?</p>
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		<title>By: Nahum</title>
		<link>http://mormonmonsters.com/2010/02/brain-surgery-and-levels-of-spirituality/comment-page-1/#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator>Nahum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 04:48:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmonsters.com/?p=8#comment-13</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t say that&#039;s all there is. You said that it can&#039;t be just that, and I simply asked why not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t say that&#8217;s all there is. You said that it can&#8217;t be just that, and I simply asked why not?</p>
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		<title>By: Jonah</title>
		<link>http://mormonmonsters.com/2010/02/brain-surgery-and-levels-of-spirituality/comment-page-1/#comment-12</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 04:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmonsters.com/?p=8#comment-12</guid>
		<description>Why be skeptical of this genre of experience more than the other ones we all share? Why are some things we experience in better correspondence with external realities but not the ones that we experience as &quot;spiritual&quot; (which, again, to me are all based on a feeling of interconnection, which I argue is THE key truth of the external world)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why be skeptical of this genre of experience more than the other ones we all share? Why are some things we experience in better correspondence with external realities but not the ones that we experience as &#8220;spiritual&#8221; (which, again, to me are all based on a feeling of interconnection, which I argue is THE key truth of the external world)?</p>
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		<title>By: Amos</title>
		<link>http://mormonmonsters.com/2010/02/brain-surgery-and-levels-of-spirituality/comment-page-1/#comment-11</link>
		<dc:creator>Amos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 04:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Perhaps it could be external. But since we all co-evolved in relatively similar surroundings, it seems plausible and worth exploring whether spirituality does originate in the brain.

Of course, I also think it&#039;s worth exploring if it originates outside of it. Things like the large hadron collider really interest me. I&#039;d also like to see more serious studies of the mind-body connection, etc. But in the meantime, what we already know gives plenty of reason for skepticism and perhaps even initially privileging the internal over the external.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps it could be external. But since we all co-evolved in relatively similar surroundings, it seems plausible and worth exploring whether spirituality does originate in the brain.</p>
<p>Of course, I also think it&#8217;s worth exploring if it originates outside of it. Things like the large hadron collider really interest me. I&#8217;d also like to see more serious studies of the mind-body connection, etc. But in the meantime, what we already know gives plenty of reason for skepticism and perhaps even initially privileging the internal over the external.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonah</title>
		<link>http://mormonmonsters.com/2010/02/brain-surgery-and-levels-of-spirituality/comment-page-1/#comment-9</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 04:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmonsters.com/?p=8#comment-9</guid>
		<description>I guess when you say that it&#039;s reasonable to think that all we can experience is a product of our brains, it seems to me you are arguing for solipcism.  If you believe there IS a reality outside yourself, and if people across cultures and time have similar experiences that they refer to as spiritual, why can&#039;t there be an external element to these? Why privilege other things in this world outside ourselves as having a reality that we in our interpretations get approximately &quot;right&quot; but refuse to grant that kind of status to the realities that people interpret as spiritual?
 
Jonah (who is sure you&#039;re not just a bad dream of his)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess when you say that it&#8217;s reasonable to think that all we can experience is a product of our brains, it seems to me you are arguing for solipcism.  If you believe there IS a reality outside yourself, and if people across cultures and time have similar experiences that they refer to as spiritual, why can&#8217;t there be an external element to these? Why privilege other things in this world outside ourselves as having a reality that we in our interpretations get approximately &#8220;right&#8221; but refuse to grant that kind of status to the realities that people interpret as spiritual?</p>
<p>Jonah (who is sure you&#8217;re not just a bad dream of his)</p>
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		<title>By: Nahum</title>
		<link>http://mormonmonsters.com/2010/02/brain-surgery-and-levels-of-spirituality/comment-page-1/#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>Nahum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 04:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmonsters.com/?p=8#comment-8</guid>
		<description>Solipsism?  Who said that?  Is there really someone outside me who his speaking?  No, couldn&#039;t be.  I must have alternate personalities who talk to me, offering insights to which my primary personality is blind. I&#039;ll call this one Habakkuk. Habakkuk seems like a good name for someone who can&#039;t spell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solipsism?  Who said that?  Is there really someone outside me who his speaking?  No, couldn&#8217;t be.  I must have alternate personalities who talk to me, offering insights to which my primary personality is blind. I&#8217;ll call this one Habakkuk. Habakkuk seems like a good name for someone who can&#8217;t spell.</p>
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